Is there a connection?
Contents
Can a relationship be established between the measurements and the listening tests? Yes… according to your author… yes. In almost all switches, there was a match between measurements and listening experiences. The only exception is the TP-Link. And that does bother your author. So we’re going to dive in there with some additional research.
What we can say – with great certainty – is that a “quiet” switch sounds better. More calmness, more detail, more music. And that makes some sense. Noise is the biggest enemy of a good hi-fi system. It creeps up where you don’t want it – think of your dac or streamer’s clock – and thus affects the calmness and resolution of a hi-fi system. Bummer!
Is the effect of a switch the same in every system? No. Because it also depends on where you place the switch and especially: where you plug in the power supply of the switch. Do you use the standard, switching power supply and plug it into the same socket as your dac or streamer? Then the power supply noise can work its way into the other devices. Also, a streamer can be made completely immune to noise. Consider the Grimm MU-1. That is designed so that (common mode) noise has no chance. Perfect. However, complex and pricey to do really well. Otherwise all other manufacturers would do that, we estimate.
In short: does a switch matter? Yes … in many cases it does. And sometimes not … :-).
Conclusion
What a journey this was! We invested weeks - months - in this test. Measuring, reading data, blind testing.... Purely to find a relationship between objective measurements and subjective listening tests. And yes: there is a link.... Badly measuring switches - switches that let a lot of noise through to the streamer - don't sound good. Something is 'off'. Something isn't right. There's unrest... Something more edgy...Now we do need to put things into perspective: we are still talking about uVolts - microvolts - and subtle differences in sound. However, the trained listener hears it almost immediately. Especially on a transparent system.
What struck us in this test is that the 'big', serious brands just have their act together. The basics are right. And that basis can be made even better with nice power supplies and better, internal shielding. And no: that doesn't have to cost thousands of euros.... Can it get any better? Sure... Of course, we are now very curious to see what the 'big audio guys' have to offer! To be continued... yeah... most definitely.
Good evening everyone
would the Netgear Gs105GE also be good, which has 5 ports instead of 8?
Thanks
Hope I don’t get kicked out for spamming… but this topic is too fascinating — little expenses, huge SQ improvements possible. Thank you Alpha Audio team for hinting at this topic!!
Anyway: Today I visited my brick&mortar HiFi dealer. He lent me a little inexpensive device for try-out (Delock 62619 to be precise, a network surge protector).
That little thing on itself brings no improvements, BUT it has a grounding connector. When grounded into my Puritan grounding solution (Routemaster+Citymaster), the sound relaxes quite noticeably. So far it seems to only have an effect when when the ISP-side (between ISP-router and final HiFi-router) is grounded… grounding between the final router and the streamer seems to do nothing, so it seems crucial where exactly the grounding of the ethernet takes place.
Glad I came across this article. Found a Netgear GS108Tv2 in my box of older switches I was ready to donate, set it up with an LPS between a Ubiquiti Cloud Gateway Ultra and a Grimm MU1 with nice results. Might have to pick up the E model since they are so budget friendly to see if it’s any better without the extra T model features or with the latest version. Anyway, it’s more relaxed and liquid sounding without any drawbacks that I can tell so far…if that makes sense. Thanks!
I totally agree that it is better to spend the money on the last power supply, as i also now have the Farad Super 3, thanks to your tests :-).
I was only trying to explain that what happens earlier in the signal chain also has a clear impact, which often can explain some differences we observe, especially as you lower the noise floor even more later in the signal chain.
As long it is data transport: the law of diminishing returns has a very steep curve here. It pays off just before the conversion (streamer, music server, DAC) and with the piece of equipment that actually does do a conversion, like with a piece of software that transcodes the digital music stream from one format into another.
Just before the conversion, a switch in front of a streamer, it is an isolation measure taken to isolate the streamer electrically from everything before.
But when talking about where to invest: you’d always be better off with saving up the money for power supplies, power cables, distribution blocks or beter components (devices) that actually do something in the music chain than on power supplies, power cables and distribution blocks that are in the chain, but passive. The exception being the last switch before the audio devices in the digital domain.
Everything else is nice material for the many audio forums on the internet, but it is really driving yourself nuts with tinkering. Here, at Alpha Audio, we have a clear take on the subject: if you like to do so, be our guest. But don’t attribute it to us. Whatever you do before the switch: it doesn’t matter that much in terms of sound quality to the investment made.
As an example: a NAS that holds all music files. If the NAS is positioned somewhere in your house, somewhere in your network, away from the HiFi stack, and the only function it has is storing files and delivering those files to a device, like a Volumio Primo for instance, it doesn’t pay off to improve the power supply, or utilise a better power distribution block. Maybe it has a marginal impact on sound quality, but only marginal. I never managed to hear a difference.
It is a different story if UPnP music server software is running on that NAS, like Audirvana Core or Minim Server or Asset UPnP. But then the NAS is an active component, not a passive one.
Then it sounds to me like you haven´t tried that logic with ethernet cables that are able to protect your noise floor also before the switch, like the AQ Vodka that you are now testing? When you add a better PS to the router then you also need to protect that lowered noise floor into the switch. Otherwise your improvements will be masked by the antenna effect of the cable (from what i understand, since it can be very clearly heard)
Also, the NAS still contaminate the router as well, even if it is passive. This is also better noticed with more protective ethernet cables in combination with better power supplies.
Please correct me if my assumption is wrong, since something is clearly different in how we test/confirm.
Adding expensive cables before the switch is what I refer to: an investment with a very low yield. Jaap has measured that before. Not that measurements tell you everything, but while using our ears I have never noticed an improvement worthwhile the investment, if the chain is already setup properly.
When asked, we would always advice to save the money for a better streamer or DAC, since that will yield a far greater improvement.
Wow, great! Curious what you will be able to hear.
BTW, for my BOTW PSU (feeding the Auralic streamer) I got a HiFi tuning fuse, the copper one. It helped a little… as usual, no blind ABX proof available. 😉
Does it still make sense to power the Netgear GS108Ev4 with an iFi Audio iPower X? Or is the supplied power supply already of this quality?
If you really want to improve, you need to look a few steps up in terms op power supply. If you have an iFi iPowerX lying around, fine, but if you need to buy one I’d recommend to get an iFi iPower2 instead, since the iPowerX doesn’t add much for a switch above the iPower2.
I ordered a second GS108E now, and an iPower X along with it. Let’s see what cascading two GS108Es in front of the streamer can do, and if the iPower X is better than the iPower 2 that I put on my first GS108E.
… after two days of burn-in I’d say:
The iFi iPowerX for the last router before streamer sounds better compared to the regular iFi iPower2. So: Option 2 sounds better (see below).
No blind a/b comparison done, though…
Option 1:
Internet-Router -> Netgear 1 (iFi iPower X) –> Netgear 2 (iFi iPower 2) –> streamer –> DDC –> DAC
Option 2:
Internet-Router -> Netgear 1 (iFi iPower 2) –> Netgear 2 (iFi iPower X) –> streamer –> DDC –> DAC
I am surprised. In all comparisons I have done, using an iPower2 or an iPowerX did not make a difference in sound quality. To me, the difference is the amount of current they can deliver.
I agree that the X is superior to the 2. At least that is what i also found. What i have noticed is that these things are masked depending on what you have connected up-stream to your switch. If you have a router with a bad power supply connected to a PC, for example, then that noise from that router will influence everything downstream and make it harder to hear these small differences in power supply on the switch. The more you obsess and don´t have a PC/NAS in the signal chain and use great ethernet cables, also upstream, the more these things is easilly noticeable, i find.
Oh well… Martijns comment made me a little uncertain. Since editing comments seems not possible I’d hereby like to revise my finding:
It still seems that these two power supplies influence sound. BUT for now not in the way I initially thought…
With an RFI-meter (by Entec, one of these buzzing boxes you can plug into an outlet and “listen” to noise on the AC) I found out that the Power X emits WAY more RFI into the mains, compared to the Power 2.
Since I plugged the PSU for “Netgear 2” into the same power strip/distributor as the streamer, DDC and DAC are plugged into, there seems to be the influence on sound.
Putting the iPower X into another power distributor clearly improves sound quality. This seems to be an “issue” of my streamer/DDC/DAC chain though.
Yes, that could certainly be the case but i still would say that the X model still is prefered over the model 2, at least from an clean power output perspective.
I should say that I have my only SMTP power supply routed to another power socket (circuit breaker) for the purpose of not contaminating the other HiFi equipments.
I think you have fallen into a known audiophile trap: to start to tinker down the wrong path.
It is a choice, of course, but if I had to give you now advice it would be to keep it to 1 switch at the streamer end and dedicate your money to improve the power supply attached to that switch.
If you want a serious improvement in sound quality, it is better to save up for a Farad Super3 power supply than to add extra switches and iFi power supplies. There’s much more to be gained that way.
Got me a Netgear GS108E (v4) now as well.
Tinker-heaven: it makes my Auralic Aries -> Denafrips digital front end sound good. I put the netgear between the streamer and the internet router (FritzBox).
Interesting: 100Mbit/s (from Netgear to Auralic) sounds worse compared to 1GB/s standard setting. Not sure about 10Mbit/s, but it’s to slow anyway.
Added tweaks: IFi power supply and the IFi Lan silencer. Have a feeling I reached what can be done with my Auralic streamer now.
Cheers, and happy holidays!
Thank you Jaap.
Following your recommendation, I bought a Netgear GS108EV4 to replace a fairly standard TP-Link TL-SG105.
I tested it the day before yesterday, and my wife, not knowing I had bought a new switch, came into the living room and said “Why is Diana Krall getting a bit brighter and the album (live in Paris) sounds more detailed?”
Without objective testing, I cannot say whether this is due to reduced noise, but there are definitely noticeable differences (even when blinded) after the change.
All the best,
what do you think of the pros and cons of using an optical cable versus a DAC cable ? (cf AS)
link to comparison :
https://audiophilestyle.com/uploads/monthly_2024_06/image.thumb.jpeg.0910e41b17a7703ea5eae46d0d7939b8.jpeg
exemple of dac cable :
https://www.fs.com/fr/products/39781.html?attribute=8715&id=2376335
Hi guys, I will be buying a GS108EV4 and willl be using wireworld starlight cat 8 Ethernet cable to connect it to my streamer, and the same cable to connect the switch to the isp router (is this wasteful?). I use Roon and a Mac Mini M1 as Roon core. Is there any advantage to connecting the core to a switch as well? If so, does it need to be to a separate switch? With regards to Ethernet cables, so you have any suggestions? What do you think of the starlight?
Hi,
I have read the article and comments carefully and have few questions.
1. In the comments it is suggested that it was V4 of Netgear GS108E used for testing while only V3 seems to exists. There is no Netgear GS108Ev4 listed on Netgear website – can you please confirm which version was in fact used?
2. Would it be possible to update the article with a photo of the label of Netgear GS108E to once and for all address it’s version used for testing
3. Which type of plug has your PSU for Netgear ProSafe GS108E – I am asking as there is a slight possibility that UK vs EU vs IT vs US etc. all might have different PSUs due to different plugs needed.
4. Would it be possible to update the article with a photo of the PSU of Netgear GS108E for future reference.
5. In article in Netgear GS108E section, it reads “This GS108E is a ‘lite version’ of the GS108T that your author is using at home. Technically, they don’t differ that much. The “E” version is a “smart managed” model on which you can adjust a few things. But that is not necessary to make it work properly.”.
My question is – was the testing done using GS108E or GS108T?
And now about my setup :):
6. I have to NASes and number of switches scattered through the floor plans due to space layout. There are 5 switches in the chain between NASes and my sources (and that cannot be changed).
a) Is it only the switch to which my source (streamer) is connected benefits from having Netgear GS108E
b) or is it maybe all 5 switches that would be best to have as Netgear GS108E
c) or maybe only the source and the NAS switches (so to opposite ends of chain of 5 switches) would benefit the most from Netgear GS108E?
7. And finally – I would love to connect my NASes to TP-Link TL-SG108E (which is the same chassis with internals designed by TP-Link) – the reasons is that this TP-Link allows for Static LAG hardware config which would be beneficial for my NASes.
Thank you for this great article and I hope you can guys get back to me here in comments with some if not all answers to my questions.
Cheers
If you click on the Netgear section of the article, there are three images of the actual Netgear switch used in this test. It reads clearly the name on the lid of the switch.
The last switch in front of your streamer is the one with the most impact. It is not about the path from the NAS to the streamer, it is about the path from your router to the streamer. Daisy chaining switches in that path does influence the sound (for better or worse). It is up to your ears what you like or don’t like.
The NAS has little impact on sound quality. So, if you want to use another switch for your NAS, I see little reason why you won’t.
Hi Martjin,
Thank you very much for getting back to me so promptly.
On the pictures we can see that it is 108E but not which version – was it V3?
For me the router does not matter as i stream locally only.
Also which type of plug you are using – in which country you are based guys?
Thanks
We are in The Netherlands. I don’t understand what you mean with ‘which type of plug’. There’s a 5V DC round connector on the Netgear, which is quite universal around the globe.
I don’t know which revision we have, I’m not at the office in Haarlem, so I cannot check.
Even with local streaming you use a router, how else does the network deliver the data packets from the NAS to the streamer? The impact of the router is in electrical noise, so it has the same influence if you stream from the internet or locally.
Ok, if you are in NL that means that you are using EU two prong plug 🙂 – the part that goes to the wall. Ok.
With local streaming router has no influence and is not needed for communication and does not take part in it between the devices on LAN within the same subnet.
Router is an edge device. It routes the traffic between different networks. In home setting in 99.99% cases it means traffic between LAN and WAN (internet).
That is of course basic IT knowledge but not everyone is IT 🙂
Once your NAS is powered on and has IP assigned from DHCP (if set with dynamic IP) and same with your streamer you can unplug router (if the devices share a switch or number of switches like in my case of course, but that is a scenario we are discussing here) and it will all work no problem.
If NAS and streamer are set with static IP the router never has to be on (of course DHCP server is not a standard function of router but in home settings people say router but really mean a device that performs functions of router / firewall / switch / DHCP server and few other).
Hope that makes sense 🙂
Hi guys 🙂
I’m new to using switches with my streaming
and considering to add the above netgear gs108e switch.
As i understand that it’s a managed version, does it mean I’ll have to set it first on a pc?? or it can also be used as plug and play??
Thanks 😉
It is plug and play.
Greetings from the Czech Republic. Thank you for your tests and reviews👍. Recently, the topic of audiophile switch is still being discussed. I have a setup of MOON 390 and 2x MOON 330, CD MOON 260, IsoTek Aquarius EVO3 and from the very beginning Ifi + Netgear GS 105. I have already tried several audiophile switches at home from cheap to very expensive to improve my system and I never heard any difference . So either I’m deaf 😎, or I’m doing something wrong, or on the contrary, everything is ok😀. What do you think, would you recommend something for me to try, or should I leave it as it is now?. Thank you David
Hello David. Maybe you can tell a bit about the SQ you already reach. Is there something you miss in music? What do you like to happen with the sound? In what position have you tried the switches?
Hi, thank you for your response. I’m a big fan of the music and I’m always looking for things to improve, although I’m very happy at the moment. I think the Moon and the Vienna Acoustic speakers fit together. So I’m looking for some improvement where I think there is a weak spot. I thought it was just in the digital path, but after tests with Innuos and SilentEngel I concluded that I had everything right, when I did not find a difference, but I wanted to make sure in the discussion. The Moon 390 is probably well treated and the Netgear, as you tested, is also excellent. So I thought of the last option to upgrade and that was to replace my IsoTek Aquarius EVO3 with IsoTek V5 Sigmas, but……….
Great to hear you already are very happy with the sound. It’s very difficult to find the best netfilter for your system. But as I know the Aquarius it probably will slightly color the sound of your system. Of course this besides the good things it does. As Jaap already suggested I would try the Audes for sure. It’s not the most expensive option, but it could be one of the best options. I was also pointed to the Audes a few months ago. It works great for me! And who knows you will even hear differences in switches the future 😉
Sorry I didn’t see your post! Maybe another manufacturer that builds transformers?
Thank you for the answer, it still won’t work for me, I’m looking for an Audes dealer, but there isn’t one in the Czech Republic, so I have to look abroad. I also came across a Puritan Audio PSM 156 filter, the reviews are also full of praise.
Jaap, Excellent article and related videos. I have a favor to ask. If you get a chance at some point could you test the UniFi Flex or Unifi Flex Mini at some point? Those are the only two Unifi switches that do not have POE. I’m not sure if disabling the POE on a switch would be equivalent to not having POE in the first place.
I purchased the Netgear GS108E and iFi power supply and that has worked out great. Since then I have upgraded my entire network to Unifi controler with an Enterprise non-POE switch as well as a 24 port POE switch and other gear. The thing is that since the Netgear is not part of the ecosystem it does not display properly in the console. It looks like my TV and streamer are connected directly to my Enterprise switch. That’s fine if the smaller Unifi switches are noisy but if they are not it would be nice to have a Unifi switch that could display correctly and be managed from the main console.
I would suspect there are many Unifi users out there that could benefit from finding out how their switches measure. Otherwise I’m happy with the NetGear, so thank you.
Hi, on your advice I have a Netgear GS108 and ifi power supply connected just behind my router with a double shielded patch cable. My question:
From my Netgear switch I run a shielded outdoor-specification network cable approximately 25metres to my garden room. I bought the cable naked and took great care to ensure I kept integrity of shielding when installing the connectors each end. What should I have in my garden room? I currently have a re-purposed old router to act as a switch for my Anthem amplifier, Lumin streamer, Apple TV and Philips Hue lighting controller. Naturally this also gives Wi-Fi for phone / iPad etc. Would you recommend a better Wi-Fi router as a replacement (with a ifi power supply) in which case any suggestions?
Or should I install the same switch and power supply in the garden and feed the old router from it just for the Wi-Fi?
I really appreciate your work and research👍🏻
If this works, I would keep everything in place, but just add an extra switch in between the repurposed router and the Lumin streamer and leave everything else connected to the repurposed router.
Then you add an extra layer of isolation from noise from the repurposed router.
The power supply supplied with the Netgear is already well behaved. I would try with the one supplied first and switch it with the iFi one you already own and determine with your ears if the extra spend is worth it for you.
Hello Martijn. I have a slightly different approach. I totally agree that there should be a switch in between the router and the Lumin, but maybe the router should be protected against noise from the network and not especially the other way around :-). Lately I have tested with many devices and cabling and everytime I protected the router against noise. The complete setup started to sound better and better. My advice would be the switch in between the router and Lumin, but even more important no other cable should be connected with the router. My thoughts at the moment…when noise reaches the router… the router will backfire on the ethernet. Normal ethernet noise can be handled, but when the router is troubled there will be bad sound 🙂
In addition no matter where the router is located and no matter if the router is in active use in the chain of the stream
Buyer beware. I bought the D-link DGS-108, but unfortunately what arrived had a different case and completely different internals (only chips on the board).
Jaap has ordered another DLINK from one of the big web retailers in The Netherlands, and a revision C6 arrived. Which means that they are still in stock, but you cannot predict which one you will get, unless a retailer mentions this.
If you go to a physical shop, the sticker on the box will tell you what revision it is, if you buy an E1 or a C6.
Since we haven’t got an E1, we cannot tell if there is an audible difference. Thanks for pointing this out!
@Jaap – very interesting. I would like to know does your findings apply to the scenario when cooper connection is broken/isolated by fiber-optic connection? In my setup I have TP-Link MC200CM 1Gb ETH => Fiber converter powered by self made hi-quality LINEAR power supply, later 0,5m fiber patch cable and back TP-Link MC200CM (it’s bi-diretional) from fiber to 1Gb ETH (again this side powered by hi-quality LINEAR power supply) and then to the streamer. So I am breaking any galvanic connection with any switches and other network infrastructure I have at home. Does how noisy switch is matters in such scenarion as well?
I also would like to thank you for opening my, and others, eye´s to these things!
I have a question related to ethernet cables into a switch, in my case the gs105e with Ipower X.
Do you believe that having a few less shielded ethernet cables connected impacts the whole switch? In other words, should I ideally update all the ethernet cables in the switch or will the noise not likely bleed between the ports?
Please keep up the amazing work for the audio community! Thank you!
Let me add some context to my question.
today i have 5 new no-name CAT8 cables (cheap) going into my switch and now I wanted to test a more expensive one into my streamer.
But then I thought, what if the other cables are adding noise into the streamer, due to their poor shielding, then my expensive cable will just protect that “noisy” signal into my streamer anyway?
Hi guys,
First of all, huge fan from Romania. I really love your work.
To be honest, I found your YT channel by accident searching for some audiophile network switches reviews and I immediately subscribed.
Based on your tests, I also purchased the D-Link DGS-108 switch, and based on a comment from Martijn I purchased the Ifi Audio iPower 2 switching power supply in order to switch the default power supply of the D-Link switch.
I am hoping you could answer to my next question, which hopefully is not that stupid :).
Q: Should I use the iPower 2 with its default plug or do I need to use one of the added adapters which are given in the box? I am guessing some adapters, even if they fit the D-link switch, they might damage it in time.
Thank you for your time and keep up this awesome work you are doing.
Best regards,
Andrei.
Hello,
For the most part, you have 8-port switches. In your opinion, do the 5-port versions (D-Link, Netgear) sound different?
Hi Jacques. There is no difference, they use the same power supply and chipset.
Hey, great review very detailed. Back in the late 80’s I worked with Western Digital on the first 100M Ethernet boards for PCs. We had a dial up system that used their boards. Hey it was the beginning of the internet what do you expect.
Back then it was all about common mode noise as the culprit of quality on a network switch or controller. Was wondering why you didn’t do any of that testing on these units?
Your test sets would allow differential and common mode testing.
Thanks,
Gordon
Hi,
I’ve been absorbed by this review and video for several hours! 🙂
I’ve bought a GS108Ev3 today and want to improve its perfomance by upgrading the power supply. Do you recommend a switching or linear power supply and which one(s)?
Thanks!
Hi. Thank you for the great review. The link for the Netgear goes to version v3 on Amazon. They don’t seem to have v4 which seems hard to find. Are v3 and v4 comparable? Thank you.
Hello.
Very interesting article.
I tried a different approach for my network connection, the idea was to simplify the network eliminating the switch that was close to my Chord 2GO/2YU streamer but keeping it visible from home network.
I use Roon, and in the past I tried on my MOCK the double network card strategy that you, but also others, suggested: the motherboard RJ45 port was connected to the ISP generic router and a PCI RJ45 card to the streamer. It’s very easy to configure and in my opinion it gave very good sound improvement, but it requires to have the 2 ethernet cards on a different subnet.
That means that the streamer was “isolated” from the home network (on a different subnet so not reachable).
Investigating further, a guy from the Roon community told me it’s possible to keep the streamer on the home subnet using the “ethernet bridge configuration”, but while this can’t be done on ROCK, Linux supports it.
So I spent some hours (I was not familiar with Linux and also didn’t know how to bridge the 2 ethernet cards, so I had to learn), but at the end I’ve been successful.
I also added another thing: the PCI exp card is now an SFP adapter , a very cheap one from Amazon, and also the SFP fiber modules are 2 cheap single-mode devices.
I use a fiber connection between the Roon server and the streamer, then I had to use a TPLink media converter between fiber and streamer, which has been powered with a homemade linear psu based on a modified board I bought on Audiophonics.
The RJ45 adapter from the motherboard is directly connected with a CAT6 cable to the router.
This gave an incredible sound improvement and allowed me to keep the streamer on the home network and use it to stream film soundtracks from my MacBook via airplay. Some weeks of test made me understand that this is just another step to make the system sound better, but there is still some work to do as the harshness is reduced but still there.
Now I’m wondering if it’s better to increase the quality of the devices I’m currently using keeping the same optical/copper configuration or instead install in the Core a high quality double net card like the JCAT XE directly connected to the streamer with high quality network cable obviously using a 5V linear PSU for the card.
Thanks
Hi, thank you very much for all your efforts.
I am interested in purchasing a Netgear GS108E. Actually, I discovered such a item has reached the v4 version. Which version was used in your tests?
Thanks
Mooi stukje!
Hebben jullie ook de Dlink DGS108 al eens vergeleken met de Cisco SG110D?
Van beide hebben jullie vgm al eens een review geschreven.
Zelf heb ik de Cisco met Ifi Ipower voeding maar zou graag willen weten of het zich loont om de Dlink te proberen.
Mooi stukje!
Hebben jullie ook de Dlink DGS108 al eens vergeleken met de Cisco SG110D?
Van beide hebben jullie vgm al eens een review geschreven.
Zelf heb ik de Cisco met Ifi Ipower voeding maar zou graag willen weten of het zich loont om de Dlink te proberen.
Hi Roy. Ik heb jaren met die Cisco gespeeld en vervangen door een DLink DGS108. De Dlink heeft een veel positiever effect. Ik heb er zelf een LHY LPS25VA voeding aan gehangen. Dat maakt ten opzichte van een iFi iPower2 uit, ook hier is het resultaat weer positief. Van harte aanbevolen om de DLink te kopen. Even op de pricewatch van Tweakers kijken waar je hem het goedkoopst kan vinden.
Does a NETGEAR GS108 (GS108-400NAS) work just as good? (not GS108E)
Does a NETGEAR GS108 (GS108-400NAS) work just as good? (not GS108E)
Hi,
Thanks for the awesome switch test. I acquired an LHY SW-8 switch some weeks before your test. I use it with an R26 DAC and a Mac Mini M1 serving Roon/HQP. It brought great improvements to my system that were consistent with what you described, particularly in Martijn’s separate review of the SW-8: a broader and deeper soundstage, longer reverberations and sense of space, whilst being a more natural sound with less glare. Amazing what a good switch can do.
So just last week based on your test findings & recommendations as an experiment I got a Netgear GS108E switch which I paired with a spare Ifi Power X PS and placed in series with the LHY I.e. Generic router > Netgear GS108E > LHY > R26.
Wow. The soundstage focus tightened considerably with a seemingly quieter background, more detail and improved micro-dynamics, a bit leaner, but still retaining the characteristic LHY natural and easeful sound.
Flicking back to the LHY alone it was warmer and smoother with a more generous if slightly bloomed bass. It took a few minutes to get used to the shift – the two switch combo is definitely more resolving and feels balanced so is staying. Oh, and adding a small grounding tube to the Netgear further relaxed and focussed the sound (doing this with the LHY had a negative effect, perhaps due to its already well sorted power section).
I am constantly amazed how upstream improvements in the digital chain, even seemingly minor ones, can seriously and cumulatively improve a streamer’s & DAC’s performance.
Will try adding FMCs next, further down into the rabbit hole I go! 😅
Keep up the great work chaps.
Jake
Jake, thank you for posting your experience! I was just about ready to pull the trigger on another SW-8. I have one on order, but looking at my network, a few more connections are needed. I was lucky to stumble upon this switch shootout and just ordered the Netgear router based upon your experience, to use with the SW-8. We are running similar setups, so I am hoping my experience is similar to yours. Thanks again! You saved me $500+. 😉
Hi,
Thanks for the awesome switch test. I acquired an LHY SW-8 switch some weeks before your test. I use it with an R26 DAC and a Mac Mini M1 serving Roon/HQP. It brought great improvements to my system that were consistent with what you described, particularly in Martijn’s separate review of the SW-8: a broader and deeper soundstage, longer reverberations and sense of space, whilst being a more natural sound with less glare. Amazing what a good switch can do.
So just last week based on your test findings & recommendations as an experiment I got a Netgear GS108E switch which I paired with a spare Ifi Power X PS and placed in series with the LHY I.e. Generic router > Netgear GS108E > LHY > R26.
Wow. The soundstage focus tightened considerably with a seemingly quieter background, more detail and improved micro-dynamics, a bit leaner, but still retaining the characteristic LHY natural and easeful sound.
Flicking back to the LHY alone it was warmer and smoother with a more generous if slightly bloomed bass. It took a few minutes to get used to the shift – the two switch combo is definitely more resolving and feels balanced so is staying. Oh, and adding a small grounding tube to the Netgear further relaxed and focussed the sound (doing this with the LHY had a negative effect, perhaps due to its already well sorted power section).
I am constantly amazed how upstream improvements in the digital chain, even seemingly minor ones, can seriously and cumulatively improve a streamer’s & DAC’s performance.
Will try adding FMCs next, further down into the rabbit hole I go!
Keep up the great work chaps.
Jake
Jake, thank you for posting your experience! I was just about ready to pull the trigger on another SW-8. I have one on order, but looking at my network, a few more connections are needed. I was lucky to stumble upon this switch shootout and just ordered the Netgear router based upon your experience, to use with the SW-8. We are running similar setups, so I am hoping my experience is similar to yours. Thanks again! You saved me $500+. 😉
On fiber – I have a similar finding. Quieter but also a bit of a hard edge to the music that is uncomfortable (much like the digital glare of old). This is improved with a better fiber converter on the streamer end (Sonore Optical Module Deluxe) – but even improved, that hardness was still there. I have to think it is a noise problem of converting from optical back to copper. My testing was with a Bricasti M3 DAC with network renderer. Copper with a passive noise isolator (Network Acoustics ENO) was less quiet (blackground) than the fiber but didn’t have the hard edge.
That said, when I upgraded to a Bricasti M21 DAC with the same network rendering technology as the M3, I could use the fiber with the Sonore module and didn’t have the hard edge. Must be better noise isolation in the M21, although the network card is supposed to be same between the two.
On fiber – I have a similar finding. Quieter but also a bit of a hard edge to the music that is uncomfortable (much like the digital glare of old). This is improved with a better fiber converter on the streamer end (Sonore Optical Module Deluxe) – but even improved, that hardness was still there. I have to think it is a noise problem of converting from optical back to copper. My testing was with a Bricasti M3 DAC with network renderer. Copper with a passive noise isolator (Network Acoustics ENO) was less quiet (blackground) than the fiber but didn’t have the hard edge.
That said, when I upgraded to a Bricasti M21 DAC with the same network rendering technology as the M3, I could use the fiber with the Sonore module and didn’t have the hard edge. Must be better noise isolation in the M21, although the network card is supposed to be same between the two.
Thanks Jaap,
I await the next testing with considerable interest. The what is happening and then the why is it happening (if it exists) fundamental. For me there are definite listening benefits with audio rated quality switches, cables and accessories. Those with data centre enterprise networking experience say no way.
John
I have worked in IT for 40 years (since before it was called IT!). When it comes to network switches used for audio purposes, it’s actually a disadvantage to work in IT as our world is all about digital of course. The impace of a switch in an audio chain is to kill (analogue) RFI/EMI noise. No 1s and 0s are harmed or enhanced by a network switch and super-accuracy clocks in switches can’t affect sound quality because of the way ethernet works (in data frames, with error correction, asynchronously). So the data centre guys are right when they look at this through a digital lens but wrong in the world of music reproduction.
In our world, a switch is there (and there must be maybe 0.5 to 1m cable to the streamer not next to the router) to kill noise – or at least to minimise it. The better a switch is at killing noise, the more effective it is for audio purposes. All an “audiophile” switch can do is to kill noise more effectively than a basic switch: a well-designed case to stop noise getting into the switch, and quietened cicruitry so the switch itself doesn’t become part of the problem.
Thanks Jaap,
I await the next testing with considerable interest. The what is happening and then the why is it happening (if it exists) fundamental. For me there are definite listening benefits with audio rated quality switches, cables and accessories. Those with data centre enterprise networking experience say no way.
John
I have worked in IT for 40 years (since before it was called IT!). When it comes to network switches used for audio purposes, it’s actually a disadvantage to work in IT as our world is all about digital of course. The impace of a switch in an audio chain is to kill (analogue) RFI/EMI noise. No 1s and 0s are harmed or enhanced by a network switch and super-accuracy clocks in switches can’t affect sound quality because of the way ethernet works (in data frames, with error correction, asynchronously). So the data centre guys are right when they look at this through a digital lens but wrong in the world of music reproduction.
In our world, a switch is there (and there must be maybe 0.5 to 1m cable to the streamer not next to the router) to kill noise – or at least to minimise it. The better a switch is at killing noise, the more effective it is for audio purposes. All an “audiophile” switch can do is to kill noise more effectively than a basic switch: a well-designed case to stop noise getting into the switch, and quietened cicruitry so the switch itself doesn’t become part of the problem.
I have received and read to post re the testing of various Ethernet switches. The comments were useful and interesting. The switches tested all seem to be at the lower end of the what is available especially for audio networking purposes.
It would be of more interest to me and probably other readers of the Forum if you undertook a similar evaluation of some higher quality more expensive audio network switches. I suggest the following Brands as examples. There are others
Melco
SOtM
Paul Pang dual or quad
Silent Angel Bonn Pro
Waversa
Renolabs
John
Hi John,
If you type ‘switch’ in the search box, you will find a test which involves some of those brands.
Hi
Does anyone compare the Paul pang quad switch and the LHY SW-8 please or/and the ediscreation please ?
Thanks for your answer
Have a great day,
I have received and read to post re the testing of various Ethernet switches. The comments were useful and interesting. The switches tested all seem to be at the lower end of the what is available especially for audio networking purposes.
It would be of more interest to me and probably other readers of the Forum if you undertook a similar evaluation of some higher quality more expensive audio network switches. I suggest the following Brands as examples. There are others
Melco
SOtM
Paul Pang dual or quad
Silent Angel Bonn Pro
Waversa
Renolabs
John
Hi John,
If you type ‘switch’ in the search box, you will find a test which involves some of those brands.
Hi
Does anyone compare the Paul pang quad switch and the LHY SW-8 please or/and the ediscreation please ?
Thanks for your answer
Have a great day,