[Tobias]

It doesn´t matter if it is UDP or TCP since it is not a digital problem. The packages has been showed to always arrive perfectly in a normal home/hifi situation: https://test.alpha-audio.net/background/measuring-ethernet-cables-part-1/

To summarize this thread (feel free to object) this is mainly a noise problem in the digital domain that causes the square waves (electrical pulses that forms the bits) to become irregularly shaped in the DAC step. The human brain is very sensitive to the time domain and can notion when the time:ing is off (caused by these irregularly shaped square waves) down to pico seconds, from what i understand.

We are mainly talking about measures to make sure that these square waves (bits) are as accurately shaped as possible, by mainly removing as much noise as possible, before the DAC step.

These are theories explained by Hans Beekhuyzen recently.

[Tobias]

Could it be that the Switch Mode power supply is used on the same power line as your other hifi components. So that the SMPS noise is actually not coming from the ethernet/clock path but rather thru the powerline and pollute your other devices that route instead?

[Tobias]

What do you mean by “Noise problem became worse” and “Clock problem becomes better”?

How do you differentiate between them?

[Tobias]

What i have learnt is that it doesn´t matter what speed it is clocked at earlier in the signal chain since digital isn´t a continuous stream of data, across devices like that. The whole idea with digital, and why it is a genius format, is that the packages can come in whatever order and state they want. It will still be rebuilt perfectly in the last DAC according to its clocking capabilities, unless those capabilities are degraded by noise. There isn´t less job for that last clock just becuase the data arrives in “better shape”, it rebuilds it the same regardless of how it arrives. (as i understands it)

[Tobias]

My suggestion is still to jump of the whole additional clock train, all together. All the naysayers are correct in one aspect: Digital is always perfect.

The only thing that matters is how much noise/jitter you have in the DAC/Clock and how degraded that conversion step gets due to this incoming noise. (These are Hans B words, not mine of course)

Since the filter solved the problem, it is clear to me that it cleaned up some sort of noise that you had from your gear, prior to the filter. I don´t know why the noise is getting worse after a while but i have to say that i am positive that it is noise, and not about crystal/shapes in the digital signal.

The main reason to jump of the additional clocking train is the added complexity. It does seem to lower the noise floor so i am not saying it isn´t working, but it just presents a level of of complexity that muddies the water when trying to find the root issue.

Just my two scents.

And I am often wrong as well! 🙂

[Tobias]

The cleanest possible signal into the last passive filtering must be the goal, i am thinking.

A WiFi extender with clean power is one way that makes sense to me and apparently measure well, from a noise perspective. (I am not sure exactly how ERIC is measuring?)

If WiFi can´t be used then i am not sure since everything on the connected network might add different types of noise that needs to be cleaned up by the last passive filter.

[Tobias]

I think ERIC is very measurement focused. Not sure if that is actually the most reliable method but i assume he listens as well. From what i understand 8 windings also has some scientific background, as well as being something he found in his measurements. (if i remember that correctly?)

I know i saw them linking to a very mathematic/scientific document that went into details about similar logics, using ferrit cores, but for another use-case of course.

Having said this, it is of course very possible that they have not tested things that Wijnand is now suggesting!

[Tobias]

Wijnand, what is talking against the fact that the noise reduction (filtering) is now just making your last DAC clock work perfect, since it is no-longer hit with “any” noise (there is always some level of noise)?

Couldn´t it be that simple, that it is actually only about making the last clock, in your DAC, work as exact as possible?

The other clocks are then actually not involved, from a clocking perspective.

[Tobias]

The Hypsos is likely similar to the IAN Canada, i am thinking. The IAN Canada solution is cost effective.

It just needs to be 5v USB C, (or was it Mini(?), don´t remember)

[Tobias]

Note that this is a ethernet cable solution into your streamer. WiFi is just earlier in the signal chain. The router will send WiFi to the WiFi extender that then sends the data using a normal fixed ethernet connection to your Streamer.

[Tobias]

once this gets viral you won´t have time for anything else ;-). Amazing work!

[Tobias]

Hi Pieter Claes,

Since noise travel on the ground plane of the ethernet cables you wan´t to “airgap”, to brake the physical connection to all the devices that are in the ethernet path, prior to you HiFi equipment. By introducing WiFi you can start from a fresh clean ethernet signal, that only is polluted by the WiFi extender and its power supply.  This particular model seem to be able to put out a very clean signal, compare to most other WiFi extenders and is therefore suitable in this application. Now the cable choke has less noise to filter away, the last bit into the streamer. WiFi Extender (with clean power)->Cable Choke->Streamer is all that is needed.

[Tobias]

I am sure you can probably get to the same low noise floor into the choke cable also using other methods. But having passive filtering the last bit make sense in my mind.

It also makes sense that a WiFi extender could potentially have a clean output since it doesn´t inherit noise from the network, prior in the signal chain, since it is not physically connected to anything, at least.

[Tobias]

Hi Pieter,

This particular WiFi extender (TP Link TL-WR902AC V4), with Ian Canada battery power (as suggested by ERIC), seem to have such a low noise floor output that adding anything after the cable choke just makes it worse (the noise floor goes up), according to him.

I can´t verify this claim myself but my feeling is that this combination might be even better than the muon pro (on its own) just because that WiFi extender has such a low noise floor output, in the first place, into the choke.

 

[Tobias]

Yes, for me, that didn´t have such a low noise floor in the first place (not very expensive ethernet gear or power supplies for the switch), the improvements when i added the WiFi extender and the choke cable was insane. Like going from a cheap chip based dac to a good R2R dac, in an attempt to draw some sort of comparison. This was done in early January.

This week it even got me into changing my amp/speaker combination to another one that i hadn´t used of a while. Suddenly that combination was my favorite, (my two setups are very different in how they deliver the sound).

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